• Tomte 2 days ago |
  • yadaeno 2 days ago |
    For reference ~8000 people died on D-Day. Most of the protestors killed are believed to be under 30.
    • mac-attack 2 days ago |
      ~2,500 for Tiananmen Square
      • swat535 a day ago |
        I think that the biggest problem with Iran right now, is that there is no clear opposition party.

        South Africa had Mandela, India had Gandhi and Chile had Aylwin. We only have "Reza Pahalavi" being pushed by United State and Israel. He is nowhere qualified to run the country and hasn't stepped a foot there for decades.

        None of these movements are going to succeed, unless someone from within the country forms a strong party and unifies everyone.

        Either way, I'm afraid that Iranians are going to be suffering for a long time.

      • qohen 9 hours ago |
        The toll was significantly higher -- this is from a 2017 BBC article [0]:

        The Chinese army crackdown on the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests killed at least 10,000 people, according to newly released UK documents.

        The figure was given in a secret diplomatic cable from then British ambassador to China, Sir Alan Donald.

        The original source was a friend of a member of China's State Council, the envoy says.

        [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42465516

  • jdmoreira 2 days ago |
    Maybe the U.S. Second Amendment isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    People should have the ability to resist or overthrow a tyrannical government.

    This is what happens when the population has no guns.

    • gregbot 2 days ago |
      Its remarkable to see the propaganda shift from “these are unarmed protestors not terrorists with guns” to “they are terrorists and they should have had more guns”.

      I’m just glad President Trump didn’t start Iraq War 2.0 with this unrest as his WMD excuse.

      • cluckindan 2 days ago |
        You know Iran not Iraq, right?
        • AlecSchueler 2 days ago |
          And that it would already be the 3rd Gulf War?
      • fc417fc802 a day ago |
        That isn't what was said though. Rather that perhaps if the protestors had been armed they wouldn't have been massacred so easily.

        Do I become a terrorist if I defend myself against government agents who are attempting to murder me? Certainly said government agents would label me as such but hopefully a neutral third party wouldn't.

    • syntaxing 2 days ago |
      I used to think similarly as well. But realistically speaking, the military weapons and civilian weapons are just too far apart nowadays. The military would absolutely smoke us compared to the intent when it was written into the bill of rights.
      • frogperson 2 days ago |
        The US couldnt win a war agaisnt Afganistan or Vietnam and neither of them had state of the art weapons systems.

        Winning a war is so much more than expensive, shiny weapons.

      • antonymoose 2 days ago |
        It was my understanding that the Ukrainian government handed out small arms and various destructive devices to resistance fighters during the initial Russian invasion. That they were able to impede the advancing forces until their assault stalled due to bad supply lines dooming their attempt at a Gulf War style takedown of the country.

        Is that accurate or just Ukrainian propaganda like the Ghost of Kiev?

      • SR2Z 2 days ago |
        The power of military weapons is great if you want to bomb buildings and burn down bridges, but there is no point fighting your own people just be crowned King of the ashes.

        Estimates for counterinsurgency are that an occupier needs ~20 soldiers for 1000 occupied civilians. The US army has 1.3M troops - the entire might of the US military would be needed to pacify just CA alone, and that would leave the rest of the country virtually defenseless. It's easy to bomb a building from a jet; it's much harder to kick in doors and arrest dissidents _even if_ there is no armed resistance.

        The hard truth that allows democracy to survive is that it is not possible to govern without the consent of the governed. It is certainly not possible to occupy a rich, productive region and have it remain rich and productive unless the occupier has overwhelming force.

        • JCharante 2 days ago |
          couldn't the government just pull an Alderaan? e.g. destroy 1 city as a message to all other cities not to resist?
          • jonplackett 2 days ago |
            Don’t give them ideas…
    • Arch485 2 days ago |
      I'm surprised there haven't been more people "exercising" the second amendment in light of what ICE is doing.

      Granted, I'm not in the U.S. so I don't know what it's like on the ground, but I'm surprised to not hear about any armed resistance despite how gun-happy many Americans are.

      • yadaeno 2 days ago |
        I wouldn’t place a government massacring 16500 citizens and enforcing immigration laws in the same category.
      • pwdisswordfishy 2 days ago |
        I am not surprised: the sort of person most likely to exercise their second-amendment rights is probably also the sort of person to support what ICE is doing.
    • duxup a day ago |
      The second amendment isn't preventing anything in the US right now.

      The second amendment is just an individual's ability to shoot someone ... why or when they choose to do so (if at all) is no sure thing.

      • fc417fc802 a day ago |
        You don't know that. By definition it will not have happened if it was prevented. The point is not that you will start shooting. Rather it's that you could.

        Moreover there's a fundamental issue in the US that quite a large proportion of the population supports what is going on. This varies by location of course but that just exacerbates the issue - there are places in the US where the vast vast majority of people have no objection to what is happening.

        • duxup 20 hours ago |
          Your post sounds like an absurd proposition that always results in "well it is working because anything that didn't happen is caused by it".

          Plenty of countries have people with lots of guns and plenty of rights violations, genocide, so on.

          • fc417fc802 18 hours ago |
            I didn't say "it's working" I said "you don't know that it's not working". It's a claim that your logic is faulty. I then proceeded to outline a plausible theory which conflicts with your claim.

            The example fails for the same reason. There's no way to rule out the possibility that there would be more rights violations in said countries if people possessed fewer arms on average. There's also no reason to expect violations to go to zero, only for them to be deterred to some extent on average.

            It's similar to the MAD doctrine. That doesn't predict no war, just less war and smaller wars in general. It doesn't even predict no use of nuclear weapons, merely that any use is rarer, more judicious, and more deliberate.

  • diffs 2 days ago |
    And the response to this brutal crackdown from our brave and virtuous progressive activists has been a collective shrug of indifference, with some exceptions where those pillars of moral rectitude have taken a bold stance... in support of the fascist theocracy that has massacred its own people.
    • owebmaster 2 days ago |
      You took 25 days to post your first comment? And a very divisive one at that?
      • diffs 2 days ago |
        I feel strongly about this issue. I don't feel it's divisive, it might be dismissive but my point in the comment is factual.

        Edit: Take a look at The Intercept as an example. Protests began three weeks ago. The only posts TI has on Iran basically amount to "Israel bad" and "Son of Shah likes Israel and Israel is bad, therefore son of Shah is bad". That's it. This is a moral failure of the highest order and it underscores, for me at least, that most of these faux-progressives' activism is purely performative.

        • camgunz 2 days ago |
          You politely left out "overtly anti-Semitic"
        • chaps 2 days ago |
          I get you -- when I was doing investigative reporting about policing and technology, the Intercept's energy was basically "great pitch, but we want you to do 8mo more work before we'll talk; good luck not being able to afford rent in the meantime".

          But, friend, with love -- shit talking about what people are doing or not doing is not the answer. Lead by example.

          • diffs 2 days ago |
            > But, friend, with love -- shit talking about what people are doing or not doing is not the answer. Lead by example.

            Why do you assume I'm not doing? Having said that, my options are limited to obtaining the lion and sun flag and participating in a demonstration. Quiet solidarity in other words. Shit talking about people who have a platform and are not using it because Israel is absolutely valid and legitimate.

            That by the way is the danger with a singular obsession with one conflict, which, objectively, is not even the deadliest conflict in its region, let alone the world. Everything is either viewed through the Israel prism, as in "we're not going to express any solidarity with Iranian protesters because the fall of the theocracy might benefit Israel", or, it gets ignored entirely because there's no clout to be gained on social media.

            • chaps 2 days ago |
              Just to be clear, I never said I disagreed with you. But I've seen a lot of infighting happening in these spaces that stems from shit talking -- people who can no longer work together anymore because of how the shit talking bifurcated the work instead of building layers between.
        • AlecSchueler 2 days ago |
          Wouldn't your energy be better spent doing what you think the should be doing rather than complaining about them not doing what you think they should be? Take some agency in the world.
        • ost-ing 2 days ago |
          > This is a moral failure of the highest order and it underscores, for me at least, that most of these faux-progressives' activism is purely performative.

          It is worse than that. Faux-progressives will also play into antisemitic conspiratorial tropes that this was all perfectly and precisely planned.

    • mindslight 2 days ago |
      If you hadn't noticed we've got our own fascist theocracy attacking its own people in the western world. We're trying to avoid giving it any more energy with vaguely-defined popular policy goals. And staying out of another country's affairs, regardless of how evil those affairs are, is a valid moral pillar.

      Now perhaps there is an interesting academic discussion about whether if we had done more to direct Demented Donnie towards Iran, that he wouldn't be attacking the rest of NATO trying to steal Greenland to create some dipshit's idea of a legacy. But that is hardly definitive with the kind of moral clarity that you're asserting.

    • dismalaf 2 days ago |
      Iran literally funds Hamas and adjacent orgs.
    • ungreased0675 2 days ago |
      I’m not sure why and I’ve never heard it articulated, but based on overwhelming evidence, progressives will not criticize Islam, Islamic regimes, or cultural practices.
      • leosanchez 2 days ago |
        > but based on overwhelming evidence, progressives will not criticize Islam, Islamic regimes, or cultural practices.

        Same observation from my third world country

    • AuthAuth 2 days ago |
      During the Gaza conflict it was highly suspected most of the outrage was manufactured by organized propaganda networks and spread into the mainstream. During this conflict and the Sudan conflict we can see it confirmed, zero attention in the mainstream because its missing the influence of an organized propaganda network creating, disseminating, legitimizing and boosting a narrative. Isreal and the CIA are terrible at modern day youth propaganda they should boosting this like crazy.
      • bn-l 21 hours ago |
        Shalom!

        You don’t think it was the genocide, starvation and mass murder of over 70,000 civilians in carpet bombings. Or the mass torture and rape?

        Israel is absolutely drowning in blood and human misery. It gobbles it up. It relishes it. There’s really no need to manufacture outrage.

        • dominicrose 20 hours ago |
          The people who kill iranians are the same who finance hamas. Think it's easy to eliminate hamas without hurting civilians? I've heard there was no carpet bombing.
        • midlander 18 hours ago |
          If you prick Iranians do they not bleed?

          Anyone who has selective outrage about the suffering of innocents does not actually care about the suffering of innocents.

        • AuthAuth 17 hours ago |
          70,000 civilians carpet bombed, this is the kind of warped reality that people live in when they only consume propaganda.
  • hardlianotion 2 days ago |
    Iran is a beautiful country, and an important part of our shared history. It is incredible that a sophisticated society has been suppressed for so long.

    To my Iranian friends, I hope the day comes soon when you can safely start building a better future in Iran.

  • rdiddly 2 days ago |
    I can't even see what's the end game for this. Nobody is going "Oh okay, we thought your regime was illegitimate before, but now we love it!" It just hardens the resistance. Unless maybe they're thinking they can kill them all. In which case the country shrinks and dies of old age in coming years.
    • tim333 2 days ago |
      I suppose either things continue for the next decades like they have for the previous few, which I guess is the most likely, or the regime gets overthrown which I find hard to see happening without foreign military intervention.
  • eddie_sputz 2 days ago |
    I wonder whatever happened to the 60,000 Iranian protestors sentenced to death several years ago?

    Oh right, it was memoryholed.

  • CrzyLngPwd 2 days ago |
    How many of them were gunned down by the armed protesters?
    • CrzyLngPwd 2 days ago |
      So nobody knows?
  • Jamesbeam 2 days ago |
    Those people placed their lives in the hands of the U.S. President when he promised that help was on the way. Help never arrived, and they were slaughtered like cattle.

    https://time.com/7347090/iran-protesters-trump-help/

    For a commander‑in‑chief, as well as the military leadership, I find this behavior dishonorable.

    I will always be a friend of the American people, but it gets harder each day to watch the irreparable damage unfold the president is unleashing on the whole planet. Midterms will show what Americans are made off, you still have a choice and a voice. Use it wisely.

  • duxup a day ago |
    I wish there was a magical formula for regime change that didn't result in more horrors.