• diamondgeezer 2 hours ago |
    Very interesting write up, would be curious to know more about what an Open Source Strategies course entails, as far as I can remember I never had anything like that on offer at my university.
  • emil-lp an hour ago |
    > Most Students Don’t Want to Use Chatbots

    I think this is changing rapidly.

    I'm a university professor, and the amount of students who seem to be in need of LLM as a crutch is growing really exponentially.

    We are still in a place where the oldest students did their first year completely without LLMs. But younger students have used LLMs throughout their studies, and I fear that in the future, we will see full generations of students completely incapable of working without LLM assistance.

    • kubb an hour ago |
      Please, you don’t need to counter-narrative everything. Maybe talk about what the professor did here and why students didn’t trust the output in an exam context in this particular subject.
      • nicce an hour ago |
        > Second, I learned that cheating, however lightly, is now considered a major crime. It might result in the student being banned from any university in the country for three years. Discussing exam with someone who has yet to pass it might be considered cheating. Students have very strict rules on their Discord.

        This has also something to do with it. Hard to make very accurate conclusions.

    • teaearlgraycold an hour ago |
      It will be very interesting to see what will happen when LLMs start charging users for their true cost. With many people priced out how would they cope?
      • alphabetag675 an hour ago |
        They would fall behind in the world just like people from developing and poor countries do today.
        • josephg 27 minutes ago |
          Very few people fall behind at the moment due to lack of access to information. People in poor countries largely have access to the internet now. It doesn’t magically make people educated and economically prosperous.
      • KeplerBoy an hour ago |
        It's not that expensive unless you run millions of tokens through an agent. For use cases where you actually read all the input and output by yourself (i.e. an actual conversation), it is insanely cheap.
      • ben_w an hour ago |
        May happen, but I suspect not in the way implied by that question.

        Hardware is still improving, though not as fast as it used to; it's very plausible that even the current largest open weights models will run on affordable PCs and laptops in 5 years, and high-end smartphones in 7.

        I don't know how big the SOTA close-weights models are, that may come later.

        But: to the extent that a model that runs on your phone can do your job, your employer will ask "why are we paying you so much?" and now you can't afford the phone.

        Even if the SOTA is always running ahead of local models, Claude Code could cost 1500 times as much and still have the average American business asking "So why did we hire a junior? You say the juniors learn when we train them, I don't care, let some other company do that and we only hire mid-tier and up now."

        (Threshold is less than 1500 elsewhere, I just happened to have recently seen the average US pay for junior-grade software developers, $85k*, which is 350x cheaper, and my own observation that they're not only junior quality but also much faster to output than a junior).

        * but also note while looking for a citation the search results made claims varying from $55k to $97.7k

    • raesene9 an hour ago |
      Reading the article, it seemed to me that both the professor and the students were interested in the material being taught and therefore actively wanted to learn it, so using an LLM isn't the best tactic.

      My feeling is that for many/most students, getting a great understanding of the course material isn't the primary goal, passing the course so they can get a good job is the primary goal. For this group using LLMs makes a lot of sense.

      I know when I was a student doing a course I was not particularly interested in because my parents/school told me that was the right thing to do, if LLMs had been around, I absolutely would have used them :).

    • jansan 25 minutes ago |
      It will depend on the student's mindset. A lazy student will use LLMs as a shortcut to generate presentations, solve homework, etc.. On the other hand, an eager student will have a much shorter feedback loop to cross check results of calculations, review code assignments, get ideas if stuck, etc.. You will have students who will dumb down, and others who will thrive and achieve things they would have never been able to do without LLMs.
    • themafia 14 minutes ago |
      Google destroyed search and replaced it with that dippy LLM box.

      Are you sure student desire is the driving force here?

  • mkirsten an hour ago |
    Interesting write up! I’ve thought about how university exams are done effectively nowadays. I took my degree in CS almost 20 years ago, and being a user of LLMS - I can’t really see how any of my old exams would work today if students would be allowed LLMs.
    • emil-lp an hour ago |
      Spoiler: they don't.

      CS exercises that we can expect an average student to solve is trivially solved by LLMs. Even smaller local models.

    • brainwad an hour ago |
      I graduated 15 years ago, and I think the exams in my degree were actually the most LLM-proof part of the student assessment. They were no-aid written exams with pencils and paper, whereas the assignments were online-submitted code only that an LLM could easily write.
  • lucb1e an hour ago |
    > 3. I allow students to discuss among themselves [during an exam] if it is on topic.

    Makes me wonder if they should also get a diploma together then, saying "may not have the tested knowledge if not accompanied by $other_student"

    I know of some companies that support hiring people as a team (either all or none get hired and they're meant to then work together well), so it wouldn't necessarily be a problem if they wish to be a team like that

    • witcher an hour ago |
      Yea, curious too about some more rules e.g. both parties has to contribute to the discussion (:
    • kubb an hour ago |
      I think we should send all diplomas to OpenAI and end higher education.

      Less educated people are easier to steer via TikTok feeds anyway.

    • elbci an hour ago |
      ha ha fair enough - but he does mention there's a culture of isolation and cu-throat competition at the school so, maybe it's just a reaction to that
    • ploum an hour ago |
      OP here: I teach Open Source Strategies.

      The main strategy is collaboration. If you are smart enough to:

      1. Identify your problem 2. Ask someone about it 3. Get an answer which improve your understanding

      Then you are doing pretty good by all standards

      Another trick I sometimes use. I take one student which has hard time articulate it a concept. I take student two who don’t understand that concept. I say to student 1: "You have 20 minutes to teach student 2 the concept. When I come back, you will be graded according to his answers"

      (I, of course, not only grade that. But it forces both of them to make an extra effort, student 2 not willing to be the cause for student 1 demise)

  • witcher an hour ago |
    Quite a thoughtful way to adapt exams to wave of new tools for students and learn on the way.

    I wished other universities adapt so quickly too (and have such a mindful attitude to students e.g. try to understand them, be upfront with expectations, learning from students etc).

    Majority of professors are stressed and treat students as idiots... at least that was the case decade a go!

    • ploum an hour ago |
      OP here: Majority of professors became professors because there were very good at passing standard exam (and, TBH, some are not good at anything else).

      I’m different because I was a bad student. Only managed to get my diploma with minimal grade, always rebel against everything. But some good people at my university thought that Open Source was really important and they needed someone with a good career in that field. I was that person (and I’m really thankful for offering that position)

  • elbci an hour ago |
    rare here: well written and insightful, I would take this course. I'm curious about why he penalized chatbot mistakes more, at first glance sounds like just discouraging their use but the hole setup indicates genuine desire to let it be a possibility. In my mind the rule should be "same penalty and extra super cookies for catching chatbot mistakes"
    • qwertytyyuu an hour ago |
      Here is my guess: Usually marks are given for partially correct answers, partially to be less punishing for human error whether caused by stress or other factors, there’s a good chance the student understood the topic. If instead they are using a chat bot, but didn’t catch the mistake themselves, it’s an indication of less understanding and marked accordingly.
  • burgerone an hour ago |
    I wish we could take our exams this way. It seems like a very interesting approach :)
  • barbegal an hour ago |
    Only 2 students actually used an LLM in his exam, one well and one poorly so I'm not sure there is much you can draw from this experience.

    In my experience LLMs can significantly speed up the process of solving exam questions. They can surface relevant material I don't know about, they can remember how other similar problems are solved a lot better than I can and they can check for any mistakes in my answer. Yes when you get into very niche areas they start to fail (and often in a misleading way) but if you run through practise papers at all you can tell this and either avoid using the LLM or do some fine tuning on past papers.

  • quacked an hour ago |
    Something that I think many students, indeed many people, struggle with is the question "why should I know anything?"

    For most of us--myself included--once you graduate from college, the answer is: "enough to not get fired". This is far less than most curriculums ask you to know, and every year, "enough to not get fired" is a lower and lower bar. With LLMs, it's practically on the floor for 90% of full-time jobs.

    That is why I propose exactly the opposite regimen from this course, although I admire the writer's free thinking. Return to tradition, with a twist. Closed-book exams, no note sheets, all handwritten. Add a verbal examination, even though it massively increases examination time. No homework assignments, which encourage "completionist mindset", where the turning-in of the assignment feels more real than understanding the assignment. Publish problem sets thousands of problems large with worked-out-solutions to remove the incentive to cheat.

    "Memorization is a prerequisite for creativity" -- paraphrase of an HN comment about a fondly remembered physics professor who made the students memorize every equation in the class. In the age of the LLM, I suspect this is triply true.

    • 6LLvveMx2koXfwn an hour ago |
      This is all very well if the goal was to sift the wheat from the chaff - but modern western education is about passing as many fee paying students as possible, preferably with a passably enjoyable experience for the institutional kudos.
      • josephg 31 minutes ago |
        I wonder if education will bifurcate back out as a result of AI. Small, bespoke institutions which insist on knowledge and difficult tests. And degree factories. It seems like students want the degree factory experience with the prestige of an elite institution. But - obviously - that can’t last long. Colleges and universities should decide what they are and commit accordingly.
      • sersi 8 minutes ago |
        I think that really depends on countries. I went to an engineering school only 15% of applicants out of high school were admitted and of those who were admitted only around 75% graduated.

        Western education passing as many fee paying students as possible seems to be very much a UK/US phenomenon but doesn't seem to be the case of European countries where the best schools are public and fees are very low (In France, private engineering schools rank lower)

    • casualscience an hour ago |
      Honestly, I feel like I have to know more and more these days, as the ais have unlocked significantly more domains that I can impact. Everyone is contributing to every part of the stack in the tech world all of a sudden, and "I am not an expert on that piece of the system" no longer is a reasonable position.

      This is in tech now, were the first adopters, but soon it will come to other fields.

      To your broader question

      > Something that I think many students, indeed many people, struggle with is the question "why should I know anything?"

      You should know things because these AIs are wrong all the time, because if you want any control in your life you need to be able to make an educated guess at what is true and what isn't.

      As to how to teach students. I think we're in an age of experimentation here. I like the idea of letting students use all tools available for the job. But I also agree that if you do give exams and hw, you better make them hand written/oral only.

      Overall, I think education needs to focus more on building portfolios for students, and focus less giving them grades.

      • monsieurbanana 20 minutes ago |
        > and "I am not an expert on that piece of the system" no longer is a reasonable position

        Gosh that sounds horrifying. I am not an expert on that piece of system, no I do not want to take responsibility for whatever the LLMs have produced for that piece of system, I am not an expert and cannot verify it.

    • dyauspitr an hour ago |
      This is like the Indian education system and presumably other Asian ones. Homework counts for very little towards your grade. 90% of your grade comes from the midterms and the finals. All hand written, no notes, no calculators.
    • qsort 30 minutes ago |
      > Closed-book exams, no note sheets, all handwritten. Add a verbal examination

      You are describing how school worked for me (in Italy, but much of Europe is the same I think?) from middle school through university. The idea of graded homework has always struck me as incredibly weird.

      > In the age of the LLM, I suspect this is triply true.

      They do change what is worth learning though? I completely agree that "oh no the grades" is a ridiculous reaction, but adapting curricula is not an insane idea.

    • themafia 15 minutes ago |
      > once you graduate from college, the answer is: "enough to not get fired"

      I thought the point was to continue in the same vein and contribute to the sum total of all human knowledge. I suppose this is why people criticize colleges as having lost their core principles and simply responded to market forces to produce the types of graduates that corporate America currently wants.

      > "enough to not get fired" is a lower and lower bar.

      Usually people get fired for their actions and not their knowledge or lack thereof. It may be that David Graebers core thesis was correct. Most jobs are actually "bullshit jobs," and in the era of the Internet, they don't actually require any formal education to perform.

    • dns_snek 10 minutes ago |
      > Add a verbal examination, even though it massively increases examination time. No homework assignments, which encourage "completionist mindset"

      To the horror of anyone struggling with anxiety, ADHD, or any other source of memory-recall issues under examination pressure. This further optimizes everything for students who can memorize and recall information on the spot under artificial pressure, and who don't suffer any from any of the problems I mentioned.

      In grade school you could put me on the spot and I would blank on questions about subjects that I understood rather well and that I could answer 5 minutes before the exam and 5 minutes after the exam, but not during the exam. The best way for me to display my understanding and knowledge is through project assignments where that knowledge is put to practical use, or worked "homework" examples that you want to remove.

      Do you have any ideas for accommodating people who find it easier to demonstrate their knowledge and understanding in different ways?

    • keybored 8 minutes ago |
      That’s a terrible indictment of society if true. People are so far from self-realization, so estranged from their natural curiosity, that there is no motivation to learn anything beyond what will get you fed and housed. How can anyone be okay with that? Because even most chronically alienated people have had glimpses of self-actualization, of curiosity, of intrinsic motivation; most have had times when they were inspired to use the intellectual and bodily gifts that nature has endowed them with.

      But the response to that will be further beatings until morale improves.

      What about technology professionals? From my biased reading of this site alone: both further beatings and pain relievers in the form of even more dulling and pacifying technology. Follow by misanhtropic, thought-terminating cliches: well people are inherently dumb/unmotivated/unworthy so topic is not really worth our genuine attention; furthermore, now with LMMs, we are seeing just how easy it is to mimic these lumps of meat—in fact they can act both better and more pathetic than human meat bags, just have to adjust the prompts...

  • pautasso an hour ago |
    The problem is when students just blindly copy and paste from the chatbot and submit it as their own answer without even reading it.

    They should be encouraged to read and review the LLM output so they can critically understand it and take ownership of it.

    • dyauspitr an hour ago |
      In my experience, reading a solution and even understanding it doesn’t go very far in teaching you how to do something. I can look at calculus solutions all day but only when I actually try to solve them myself do I run into all kinds of roadblocks which is where the real learning happens.
    • themafia 13 minutes ago |
      They should be encouraged to not turn in casual plagiarism as their own work.

      I believe there is a mechanism for this already.

  • veltas an hour ago |
    > The third chatbot-using student had a very complex setup where he would use one LLM, then ask another unrelated LLM for confirmation. He had walls of text that were barely readable. When glancing at his screen, I immediately spotted a mistake (a chatbot explaining that "Sepia Search is a compass for the whole Fediverse"). I asked if he understood the problem with that specific sentence. He did not. Then I asked him questions for which I had seen the solution printed in his LLM output. He could not answer even though he had the answer on his screen.

    Is it possible, and this is an interesting one to me, that this is the smartest kid in the class? I think maybe.

    That guy who is playing with the latest tech, and forcing it to do the job (badly), and could care less about university or the course he's on. There's a time and a place where that guy is the one you want working for you. Maybe he's not the number 1 student, but I think there should be some room for this to be the Chaotic Neutral pick.

    • watwut 30 minutes ago |
      > Is it possible, and this is an interesting one to me, that this is the smartest kid in the class? I think maybe.

      He might as well be the dumbest guy in the class. Playing with tech is not a proof of being smart on itself.

  • Joel_Mckay 21 minutes ago |
    "Marking Exam Done by A.I." (Sixty Symbols)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcQPAZP7-sE

    LLM reasoning models are very good at searching well documented problems. =3

  • knallfrosch 15 minutes ago |
    I don't understand.

    10 years ago, we wrote exams by hand with whatever we understood (in our heads.)

    No colleagues, no laptops, no internet, no LLMs.

    This approach still works, why do something else? Unless you're specifically testing a student's ability to Google, they don't need access to it.