I know what you're thinking... and I still can't believe it, but...

This morning, our database flagged a duplicate UUID (v4). I checked, thinking it may have been a double-insert bug or something, but no.

The original UUID was from a record added in 2025 (about a year ago), and today the system inserted a new document with a fresh UUIDv4 and it came up with the exact same one:

b6133fd6-70fe-4fe3-bed6-8ca8fc9386cd

We're using this: https://www.npmjs.com/package/uuid

I thought this is technically impossible, and it will never happen, and since we're not modifying the UUIDs in any way, I really wonder how that.... is possible!? We're literally only calling:

import { v4 as uuidv4 } from "uuid";

const document_id = uuidv4();

... and then insert into the database, that's it.

Additionally, the database only has about 15.000 records, and now one collision. Statistically... impossible.

Has that ever happened to anyone?! What in the...

  • serf 11 hours ago |
    1 in 4.72 × 10²⁸

    1 in 47.3 octillion.

    i'd be suspecting a race condition or some other naive mistake, otherwise id be stocking up on lottery tickets.

    (lol at the other user posting at the same time about the lottery ticket.. great minds and all that.)

    • petee 8 hours ago |
      I've always looked at it the the other way - being that lucky would mean you have even less chance of something else lucky happening, good time to save your money
    • k4rli 7 hours ago |
      The lottery ticket part makes no sense. Statistically if such an improbable event just happened to him, then chance of it happening again should be even more improbable.
      • jaccola 3 hours ago |
        The chance of him winning the lottery is identical to before, however the reward if he wins is slightly greater.

        He would win the lottery money + he gets to tell people who don’t understand independence this incredible story!

      • sowbug 3 hours ago |
        This is probably (ha) a troll thread, but in case anyone here is among today's lucky (ha) 10,000, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_(probability_theo...
      • angoragoats 2 hours ago |
        No, the events are independent. If you have a UUID collide, your chance of winning the lottery if you enter it is exactly the same as it was before the UUID collision.
        • georgemcbay an hour ago |
          > If you have a UUID collide, your chance of winning the lottery is exactly the same as it was before the UUID collision.

          True, but only if you were already going to play the lottery anyway.

          If you don't normally play the lottery and the UUID collision combined with superstition is what enticed you to play, then the UUID collision will have raised your chances of winning the lottery from 0% to slightly higher than 0%.

          • angoragoats an hour ago |
            Colloquially, when I say "your chance of winning the lottery" what I mean is "your chance of winning the lottery given that you enter." And I think you probably know this. But I've updated my post to be clear.
  • mittermayr 11 hours ago |
    I fully agree. It makes no sense. Yet...

    The only guesses I'm having is that we originally generated UUIDv4s on a user's phone before sending it to the database, and the UUID generated this morning that collided was created on an Ubuntu server.

    I don't fully know how UUIDv4s are generated and what (if anything) about the machine it's being generated on is part of the algorithm, but that's really the only change I can think of, that it used to generated on-device by users, and for many months now, has moved to being generated on server.

    • stubish 11 hours ago |
      The UUIDv4 collision is statistically extremely unlikely. What is more likely is both systems used the same seed. This might be just a handful of bytes, increasing the chance of collision to one in billions or even millions.
      • tracker1 an hour ago |
        The shim for node:crypto in the browser is likely a weaker implementation in JS than the node implementation... you can cheat and use the browser itself to get a UUIDv4...

            function uuid4() {
              var temp_url = URL.createObjectURL(new Blob());
              var uuid = temp_url.toString();
              URL.revokeObjectURL(temp_url);
              return uuid.split(/[:\/]/g).pop().toLowerCase(); // remove prefixes
           }
    • AntiUSAbah 10 hours ago |
      You let users generate a UUID?

      To be honest, the chance that you are doing something weird is probably higher than you experiencing a real UUID conflict.

      How did your database 'flag' that conflict?

      • mittermayr 10 hours ago |
        user-generated (as in: on the user's phone) was only at the very early stages of this product, and we've since moved to on-server. It's a cash-register type of app, where the same invoice must not be stored twice. So we used to generate a fresh invoice_id (uuidv4) on the user's device for each new invoice, and a double-send of that would automatically be flagged server-side (same id twice). This has since moved on to a server-only mechanism.

        The database flagged it simply by having a UNIQUE key on the invoice_id column. First entry was from 2025, second entry from today.

        • bitsandbits an hour ago |
          If the server or the user's phone had the wrong time and if the date is used in generating the ID...
          • whatevaa an hour ago |
            uuidv4 is random. uuidv7 includes time.
        • tracker1 an hour ago |
          Assuming the phone is using the default JS engine, it's whatever is being shimmed for node:crypto package's random bytes method... which is likely weaker.

          I wrote a different implementation that cheats by using browser's methods of getting a uuid.

          https://github.com/tracker1/node-uuid4/blob/master/browser.m...

      • wongarsu 7 hours ago |
        If it's UUIDv4 and you validate that the UUID is valid and not conflicting I don't really see the issue with user-generated UUIDs. Being able to generate unique keys in an uncoordinated manner is the main selling point of UUIDs

        Sure, it's something I'd flag in any design to spend two minutes to talk about potential security implications. But usually there aren't any

        • AntiUSAbah 6 hours ago |
          Validation etc. every thing which should not be controlled by a user, will not be controlled by a user.
        • JambalayaJimbo 5 minutes ago |
          The whole point of UUIDv4 is that you don't need to check if it's conflicting and can just use them right away. This falls apart if you let untrusted sources of UUIDv4's enter your system IMO
      • tracker1 an hour ago |
        Likely a unique index... duplicate insert on a primary or 1:! foreign key. I am currently shimming out a process that will add a trackingid for a job service, and just had my method stub retorn Guid.Empty... second time I ran my local test it blew up on the duplicate key... then I switched it to null, then it blew up again... I neglected to exclude null from the unique index on the foreign key.

        In any case, it's easy enough to do. I mostly use UUDv7, COMB or NEWSEQUENTIALID ids myself though.

    • lazyjones 9 hours ago |
      Better check what crypto.js is actually doing in your exact setup. Weak polyfills exist...
    • wongarsu 7 hours ago |
      If it was two on-device generated UUIDs I could see a collision happening. There have been instances of cheap end devices not properly seeding their random number generators, leading to colliding "random" values. And cases of libraries using cheap RNGs instead of a proper cryptographic RNG, making it even worse

      But on a server that shouldn't happen, especially not in 2026 (in the past, seeding the rngs of VMs used to be a bit of an issue). Even if one UUID was badly generated, a truly random UUID statistically shouldn't collide with it. You'd need an issue in both generators

      • tracker1 an hour ago |
        The library is using node:crypto, but with a phone target, that's likely shimmed with a JS implementation...
  • beardyw 11 hours ago |
    Just a stupid question, but why not append the date, even in seconds as hex. It's just a few bytes and would guarantee that everything OK now will be OK in the future?
    • mittermayr 11 hours ago |
      yeah, any sort of additional semi-random data could've helped prevent this, I'm sure. That, however, is also kind of the idea of UUIDv4, it has lots of randomness and time built in already.
      • flohofwoe 10 hours ago |
        UUID v4 consists of only random bits, no timestamp info.
        • mittermayr 10 hours ago |
          oh, interesting, I didn't know that and this could possibly be part of the problem perhaps depending on what's used as the seed.
      • beardyw 7 hours ago |
        But surely hashing the date still allows for a future collision. Leaving the date as is means it will never collide after that one second has passed.
        • kayodelycaon 3 hours ago |
          UUID 7 does not hash the date. It uses 48 bits to store a millisecond resolution timestamp. This allows you to sort uuids by time.
        • toraway 14 minutes ago |
          You could do that, but now you're like 90% of the way to maintaining a monotonically increasing number you that could just use as a unique ID instead without any randomness required (and without the additional 128 bits for collision protection via the appended UUID).

          So your ID would take like 64 bits for the time unique to the nanosecond plus 128 bits for the UUIDv4 = 192 bits which is a pretty beefy sized ID.

          (I know you said just append a second count but you will want a predictable/fixed size for your data structure in pretty much any use case so need to decide the upper bound ahead of time)

          Especially when the alternative is a 128 bit UUIDv4 that's guaranteed unique with proper usage of high quality RNG or a 128 bit UUIDv7 if you have a clock (that's needed for your method anyway) that's much more forgiving of a flaky source of randomness and just as sortable as your monotonic ID for 1/3 fewer bits.

          Basically, stapling anything onto a UUID is a waste of space if you don't trust it, and might as well drop it completely in favor of something smaller at that point.

    • flohofwoe 10 hours ago |
      You can just use a different UUID variant which includes timestamp data instead (e.g. v1 or v7), there are also variants which include the MAC address.
    • pan69 10 hours ago |
      > but why not append the date

      And use uuid v5 to hash it :)

    • itsyonas 3 hours ago |
      Might as well just use uuidv7
  • wg0 11 hours ago |
    Would the UUID v7 be more collision proof? Hard to say because it takes time into account but then the number of entropy bits are reduced hence the UUID generated exactly at the same time have more chance of a collusion because number of entropy bits are a much smaller space hence could result in collusions more easily.

    Thoughts?

    • AntiUSAbah 10 hours ago |
      You open up every millisecond a new block. Should be even more unlikely
    • _kst_ 15 minutes ago |
      UUID v7 relies on knowing what time it is.

      Speculation: The most likely scenario for a UUID v7 collision is if UUIDs are generated during a system boot sequence, before the system clock is set to the current time. It's always 1970 somewhere. There are still 62 random bits, and optionally another 12 random bits, but those too could be problematic if the system hasn't generated enough entropy yet.

  • naikrovek 10 hours ago |
    The chance of a UUIDv4 collision is very low, but it is never zero.

    If everything is done properly, then this is very likely the one and only time anyone involved in the telling or reading of this account will ever experience this.

    • dalmo3 10 hours ago |
      Classic gamblers fallacy!
      • jaccola 3 hours ago |
        Ironically one of the few comments in this thread that isn’t necessarily the gamblers fallacy!

        The chance anyone involved saw or heard about the first one was near zero, now they’ve seen this one the chance they see another is still near zero (I.e unchanged).

  • jordiburgos 10 hours ago |
    Please, do not use b6133fd6-70fe-4fe3-bed6-8ca8fc9386cd, I checked my database and I was using it already.
    • mittermayr 10 hours ago |
      I knew it, we're all getting the same cheap UUIDs and the good ones are reserved for the big dogs.
      • Galanwe 10 hours ago |
        uuid.uuidv4() recently switched to "adaptive entropy" instead of "xmax entropy" in an effort to save costs on non-premium users.
      • antonvs an hour ago |
        You mean you’re not already entropymaxxing? n00b
    • robshep 10 hours ago |
      I'm using 16b55183-1697-496e-bc8a-854eb9aae0f3 and probably some more too. I suppose if we all post our list here, then we can all check for duplicates?
      • mittermayr 10 hours ago |
        We should all send our already-generated UUIDs to a shared database, we could just put it on Supabase with a shared username/password posted on HN, so we can all ensure that after generating a UUIDv4 locally, it's not used by anyone else. If it's in the database, we know it's taken.

        It's a super simple mechanism, check in common worldwide UUID database, if not in there, you can use it. Perhaps if we use a START TRANSACTION, we could ensure it's not taken as we insert. But that's all easy, I'll ask Claude to wire it up, no problem.

        • broken-kebab 9 hours ago |
          But then I will claim I have already used all the UUIDs in my spreadsheets, and my lawyer will send cease&desist letters to every database.
      • volemo 10 hours ago |
        A site previously posted here could be useful: https://everyuuid.com/
      • jsnell 10 hours ago |
        You can check https://everyuuid.com/ for collisions.
    • classified 8 hours ago |
      That UUID should have my name sticker on it. Don't your UUIDs have name stickers?
    • rich_sasha 8 hours ago |
      I always thought generating UUIDs at random was insane. I now only use LLMs. The prompt is: "generate a UUID. Make sure no one ever used it anywhere in their code or database. Check your work and think hard about each step. Do not output any reasoning or plain English, only th UUID itself".

      You're welcome.

      • mh2753 5 hours ago |
        Actually asking ChatGPT this query led it giving me this UUID "550e8400-e29b-41d4-a716-446655440000" which happens to be a very common example UUID
        • wolttam 2 hours ago |
          The LLM is mechanistically unable to pick something actually random and outside of its training distribution, so... yep.
          • antonvs an hour ago |
            If you ask it to construct a UUID character by character you should get a somewhat random one, just because of temperature.
            • recursive 34 minutes ago |
              But all LLM output is token by token, which isn't too far from character by character in the case of a UUID. Why is this different? I do not know.
  • adyavanapalli 10 hours ago |
    What you're talking about is so extremely rare that it's much more likely that the entire Earth is destroyed by an asteroid right this inst...
    • delichon 7 hours ago |
      About as rare as an asteroid typing an ellipsis and clicking the add comment button.
      • throw0101c 3 hours ago |
        Well, this joke dates back to (at least) the dial-up days where {#`%${%&`+'${`%& NO CARRIER
      • xerox13ster 3 hours ago |
        That’s just a result of jounce from localized gravity effects and atmospheric pressure disturbances in the moments before impact.

        Think the ultrasonic typing hacking scene in Pantheon combined with the keyboard bouncing due to rumbling.

    • sebazzz 5 hours ago |
      Well it would be statistically even rarer for that UUID collision to happen and the earth to be destroyed by an asteroid.
    • crazylogger 4 hours ago |
      For a single database using UUIDs, yes, it's astronomically rare. But it's quite a different thing to say that no computer system on Earth has ever experienced a UUID collision. The number of systems out there is also astronomical.
      • nathanmills 3 hours ago |
        >The number of systems out there is also astronomical.

        Not even close

    • thomasmg 2 hours ago |
      It is not quite as rare. I calculated it to be less common than being hit by a meteorite, and added a section about that and the Birthday Paradox to Wikipedia, to the article about UUIDs. It got removed / replaced a few years ago however. (If my source was correct, there was actually a woman hit by a meteorite, but she survived, with a leg injury.)

      If you do have a UUID collision, chances are extremely high that it's either a software bug, or glitch in the computer. It could be a cosmic ray. Cosmic rays messing with the computer memory or CPU are actually relatively common.

    • spindump8930 6 minutes ago |
      It's very common if you improperly seed, as others in the thread brought up! Or in your framing, as rare as earth getting hit if it were surrounded by a sci-fi density asteroid field.
  • tumdum_ 10 hours ago |
    Poorly seeded prng.
    • jdthedisciple 9 hours ago |
      most likely the culprit indeed
      • nswango 9 hours ago |
        But I used nonstandard nonces!
  • glaslong 9 hours ago |
    Buy some lava lamps
  • AndreyK1984 9 hours ago |
    Why not to have timestamp-uuid instead ?
    • dgellow 9 hours ago |
      How confident are you that your machines clocks are in perfect sync? What about the risk of clock drift + correction, or hardware issues?
      • croon 7 hours ago |
        Not GP, but: not confident. How confident would I be to avoid a (slightly lower entropy) UUID collision while also avoiding a clock desync landing on the exact same logged millisecond? Very, which is how confident I was about not encountering an UUID collision before this thread, so very++ I guess.
  • ares623 9 hours ago |
    Buy a lottery ticket
  • leni536 9 hours ago |
    It's not happening by chance, there is a bug somewhere.

    From what I skimmed the package should just call to the js runtime's crypto.randomUUID(). I think it should always be properly seeded.

    I think it is extremely unlikely that the runtime has a bug here, but who knows? What js runtime do you use?

  • not_math 9 hours ago |
    Reminds me of some code I saw running in production. Every time we added a new entry, we were pulling all the UUIDs from this table, generating a new UUID, and checking for collisions up to 10 times.
  • throwaway_19sz 9 hours ago |
    Funny story no one will believe, but it’s true. A good friend of mine joined a startup as CTO 10 years ago, high growth phase, maybe 200 devs… In his first week he discovered the company had a microservice for generating new UUIDs. One endpoint with its own dedicated team of 3 engineers …including a database guy (the plot thickens). Other teams were instructed to call this service every time they needed a new ‘safe’ UUID. My pal asked wtf. It turned out this service had its own DB to store every previously issued UUID. Requests were handled as follows: it would generate a UUID, then ‘validate’ it by checking its own database to ensure the newly generated UUID didn’t match any previously generated UUIDs, then insert it, then return it to the client. Peace of mind I guess. The team had its own kanban board and sprints.
    • franktankbank 8 hours ago |
      Who has the balls to form that team? Were they disbanded?
      • giancarlostoro 2 hours ago |
        I will gladly assume that this team was formed after several collisions with UUID's my assumption is that they had tremendous amount of data and enough revenue to justify all of this at least financially. I would have re-evaluated the UUID version used or if adopting Snowflakes would be better at some point.
    • wongarsu 7 hours ago |
      At some point someone optimizes the system to a global company-wide incrementing 128 bit counter. Instead of needing a costly database lookup against a growing database the microservice just fetches the current counter, increments it by one and hands out the new value. Easy, fast O(1) operation.

      This even allows you to shard the service to provide high availability and distribute the service globally to reduce latency. Just give each instance a dedicated id range it can hand out. I'd suggest reserving some of the high bits to indicate data center id, and a couple more bits for id-generator instance within that dc.

      Wait a second, this starts to look familiar ... does Twitter still do that, or did they eventually switch?

      • throw0101c 3 hours ago |
        > At some point someone optimizes the system to a global company-wide incrementing 128 bit counter.

        Some UUID versions include time, so there's a bit of a counter in that.

      • sheept 3 hours ago |
        Twitter snowflakes haven't changed. Most of the bits go to the timestamp, which I guess is a global incrementing counter as you described
      • kuratkull 2 hours ago |
        Define a random 128 bit key that you will never change. Use that key to encrypt 128 bit integers in sequence using AES-128, each one comes out as a, for all practical purposes, unique unpredictable ID.
    • roryirvine 7 hours ago |
      I've seen similar, buried deep within a major SV tech co.

      Their process was a bit more complex because the master list of in-use UUIDs was stored in an external CMDB service run by a different department. They got a daily dump of that db, so were able to check that when generating a "provisional" id. Only once it had been properly submitted to the CMDB did it became "confirmed".

      They had guardrails in place to prevent "provisional" ids being used in production, and a process for recycling unused "confirmed" ids. Oh, and they did regular audits which were taken very seriously by management.

      Last I heard, they were 18 months into a 6 month project to move their local database cache to Zookeeper...

    • ryandvm 6 hours ago |
      Pffft - they didn't need to store the whole UUID, just a hash. Dummies.
      • dd8601fn 6 hours ago |
        They thought of that, but they were still working on hiring a team to maintain the hashing microservice.
        • mstaoru 5 hours ago |
          Hashing microservice deployment was blocked by random generator microservice stuck in Pending because it needed an UUID from UUID microservice which was blocked by hashing.
          • alserio 2 hours ago |
            "Learned a lot today, love Galactus"
      • mrsvanwinkle 4 hours ago |
        already laughing from parent comment this is well done
      • _3u10 2 hours ago |
        one hash is insufficent, they need k-hashes.

        i get the joke, but seriously a bloomfilter would be a good idea.

    • giancarlostoro 2 hours ago |
      I can believe it, and I often wondered "can I win the UUID misfortune lottery" I wonder if this is equally common with Microsoft's flavor aka GUIDs.
      • tracker1 2 hours ago |
        GUIDs are UUIDs are effectively the same thing... the issues often come down the the means of generation and storage... where UUID have versions with specific implementation details that aren't always followed, MS has internal implementations that also aren't always followed. Also worth being aware of are COMB, SequencialIDs (MS-SQL) and other serialization approaches as well as how they affect indexes in practice.

        Alternatives include sequencial number generator services, or sequence services that may be entirely sequencial, etc, but may lead to out of order inserts in practice.

        Also, generally worth considering UUIDv7 assuming your sotrage and indexing use the time portion at the front of the index process.

    • mrbonner 2 hours ago |
      We have had a service to add two numbers. What make you think this is not realistic? :-)
      • morkalork 2 hours ago |
        I too have witnessed a "add two numbers" service! Turns out you can be too extreme with rules for isolating out business logic..
        • Schiendelman 7 minutes ago |
          Same! It had validation on each number before adding them. Poor design, but that's how it worked.
    • dboreham an hour ago |
      This is the software industry version of "The Onion".
    • LocalH an hour ago |
      I'd believe it.

      What I'd find harder to believe is that it wasn't really a table with more information than just "list of assigned UUIDs". I'd be really surprised (pleasantly!) if it was only that. I'd figure most startups would make sure that table links to customer info so that they know which customer has a specific UUID, for easy searching and crossreferencing with the main db

      • tomjakubowski 40 minutes ago |
        That sort of table can be quite handy when every entity in the business's data stew is identified with a UUID, and there is no way of telling just from looking at an identifier what kind of entity it is. Particularly when the business has disparate databases and/or microservices with their own sets of UUIDs.

        In such businesses, inevitably, someone will ask you to run process X for widget 8dbcd950-14c1-4877-a8b0-90c081ce033c, and that particular identifier will actually be an ID of some associated data, not the widget. You can push back and say, "That isn't a widget identifier, can you please look up the widget identifier?" It's better to be able to look that ID up in your ID ⮕ entity type lookup table, and say "the ID you provided is a widget production run ID, which produced a copy of widget a84969be-137a-41ca-97c4-515497184df9. Can you confirm this is the widget you need process X done for?", with a link to the product-facing widget page.

        (Also handy for the case where some code was intended to log an ID for one entity, but actually logs the ID for an associated entity with the wrong entity type indicated.)

    • CodeWriter23 an hour ago |
      I get the microservice to ensure this. But 3 people dedicated to it? I guarantee you they spent their days trudging dungeons, playing CoD and ping pong.
    • ssalka an hour ago |
      At one of my previous jobs, there was a function `createEntityWithRandomUUID` which would basically do the same thing as a light wrapper around database inserts. If a conflict occurred, it would generate a new ID and try again, up to 5 times I think. No logging to indicate whether any conflict actually ever happened.
    • Aurornis 37 minutes ago |
      > One endpoint with its own dedicated team of 3 engineers

      > The team had its own kanban board and sprints.

      My early jobs were at startups startups with limited resources. Every decision to build something or hire someone was carefully made after much consideration. This story would have looked like fiction to me at the time.

      Later in my career I joined a startup like this where every new concern someone could think up turned into a new microservice with new hires to form a new team. It didn't matter how small it was, everything was a reason to hire new people and form a new team. I sat in meetings where the express goal of the quarter was communicated as growing the engineering team.

      It was as weird time. We had this same situation where there were 3-4 person teams who had their own sprints and planning sessions where they would come up with more ways to make work for themselves. Some of them moved so slow that they could spend entire sprints doing tiny changes. Others were working on the most over-engineered solutions you'd ever seen for trivial problems.

      There was one meeting where I suggested we re-assign some people on a stable project to work on something that we needed urgently, but I got shut down. That would have removed another excuse to hire more people, which would have conflicted with someone's KPIs to grow the engineering team to a specific number

      • kypro 3 minutes ago |
        > My early jobs were at startups startups with limited resources. Every decision to build something or hire someone was carefully made after much consideration. This story would have looked like fiction to me at the time.

        This was pre-2015

        > Later in my career I joined a startup like this where every new concern someone could think up turned into a new microservice with new hires to form a new team. It didn't matter how small it was, everything was a reason to hire new people and form a new team. I sat in meetings where the express goal of the quarter was communicated as growing the engineering team.

        This was post-2015

        ---

        Am I right?

        You're describing exactly what I've tried to express in various comments. There was a point in the latter half of the 2010s when it became genuinely hard to find tech work where you were building useful stuff. Startups become increasingly absurd and the focuses of their engineering teams even more so.

        In 2019 I was working for a company who were so desperate to hire new engineers at one point they decided to just start offering jobs to candidates which failed interviews. It was absolutely insane.

    • rekabis 31 minutes ago |
      You would think they could automate the entire process by “creating-ahead” a certain number of UUID values in the DB, storing them in memory to reduce DB latency, and then recording the assignment to the DB once it had been assigned.

      And the microservice could easily be crafted to only accept assignment requests from other known endpoints.

  • NKosmatos 9 hours ago |
    > I thought this is technically impossible

    Actually it's not impossible, but very very improbable.

    P.S. You should play a lottery/powerball ticket

    P.P.S. Whenever I use the word improbable, the https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_D... comes in mind

    • rithdmc 7 hours ago |
      Inconceivable!
    • sebazzz 5 hours ago |
      > P.S. You should play a lottery/powerball ticket

      Actually, they should not. That collision and winning the lottery would be even rarer.

      • lgeorget 2 hours ago |
        Assuming they are independent events, OP is not more nor less likely to win the lottery now that before running in the collision. I actually have more question if you claim the events in question are NOT independent!
  • sublinear 8 hours ago |
    • OptionOfT 2 hours ago |
      That's what the package uses. And if `crypto.randomUUID()` doesn't exist, it falls back to `crypto.getRandomValues()`, which per the documentation isn't AS strong:

      https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Crypto/getR...

      So by using the package you actually lose visibility of cases where `crypto.randomUUID()` would fail.

  • lyfeninja 8 hours ago |
    Although incredibly rare, it's not impossible so probably best to just plan for collisions. A simply retry should suffice. But I agree I feel like something is going on somewhere else ...
  • Geee 8 hours ago |
    According to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there's bound to be one branch of universe where every UUID is the same. Can you imagine what those guys are thinking?
    • nyantaro1 6 hours ago |
      This is why I am not a fan of the Everett approach
    • zeeveener 3 hours ago |
      "Huh, this is just an identity function. Cool. Let's move on."
    • BobaFloutist 3 hours ago |
      Not only that, there's vastly more where every UUID except one is the same, but they never got to that one because they didn't ever use them.

      Or where the first two are unique, but every following one is one of the first two.

  • OutOfHere 7 hours ago |
    This is why I prefer to use a random base32 string over UUID. At least you get a proper 128 bit entropy instead of just a 122 bit entropy as with UUIDv4. That's a 64x difference in collision probability. I always thought UUIDs were a toy, not for serious use. If you control the strings, you can even make a longer ID.

    Also, numerous applications that use a unique ID per record frequently need to check for ID collisions. I know I do for a short URL generator.

  • juancn 6 hours ago |
    Something off on how the RNG is initialized? Lack of entropy?

    If the rng is not customized it will use:

        const rnds8 = new Uint8Array(16);
        export default function rng() {
            return crypto.getRandomValues(rnds8);
        }
    
    getRandomValues doesn't specify a minimum amount of entropy.
    • Hizonner 5 hours ago |
      It's a near certainty that something is badly wrong with the RNG, and, yes, probably in how it's seeded.

      It's probably messing up the cryptography, too.

      • Onavo 3 hours ago |
        But defaults should be sane and safe. RNG isn't the sort of thing you want to be messing up. Every JS dev was taught that Math.random is not safe by default, but the crypto package is.
  • merlindru 5 hours ago |
    Gotta be a seeding issue. If it's not, and you can prove it, you're about to be a little famous probably :P
  • baq 3 hours ago |
    the vm you're running on virtualized all the entropy away.
  • jbverschoor 3 hours ago |
    Most plausible cause: uuid package depends on some random number generator package, which has recently been compromised in order to make “random” numbers predictable. As a result, many crypto (ssl + currency) projects are compromised due to a supplychain attack.
    • jbverschoor 2 hours ago |
      Changed 3 weeks ago:

      uuid/src/rng.ts : the random array is const. Every call will share the same random number. Subsequent call will update your old random code, so if you generated something important... good luck

      The old code used to do a slice() which creates a new copy.

      Might be unintentional. Although I have no idea how this would pass any tests, as you would think to test generating 2 randomnumbers and hope they are not the same.

      • jbverschoor 2 hours ago |
        Didn't actually want to write a test myself.. but I miss Claudia confirmed it. Pretty concearning.

        Synchronous / serial calls:

           import rng from './rng';
           
           const a = rng();
           console.log('a after first call: ', Array.from(a));
           
           const b = rng();
           console.log('a after second call:', Array.from(a));
           console.log('b after second call:', Array.from(b));
           
           console.log('a === b (same reference)?    ', a === b);
           console.log('a equals b (same contents)?  ', a.every((v, i) => v === b[i]));
        
        
        output:

           a after first call:  [
             101, 193, 125,  19, 142,
             136, 181, 140, 209, 224,
             176, 153, 179, 248, 246,
             166
           ]
           a after second call: [
               4,  29, 48, 215, 162,  60,
              64,  23, 78, 137,   2, 186,
             230, 249, 70, 224
           ]
           b after second call: [
               4,  29, 48, 215, 162,  60,
              64,  23, 78, 137,   2, 186,
             230, 249, 70, 224
           ]
           a === b (same reference)?     true
           a equals b (same contents)?   true
           
        
        and aynchronous calls:

           import rng from './rng';
           
           async function getId() {
              const bytes = rng();
              await new Promise(r => setTimeout(r, 0)); // yield to the event loop
              return Array.from(bytes);
           }
           
           const [id1, id2] = await Promise.all([getId(), getId()]);
           console.log('id1:', id1);
           console.log('id2:', id2);
           console.log('identical?', id1.every((v, i) => v === id2[i]));
        
        
        output:

           id1 captured:  [
              61, 116, 151,  35, 153,
              75, 105,  15,  59, 235,
             162, 215, 224, 115,  31,
             122
           ]
           id2 captured:  [
              13,  3,  84,  28, 22, 176,
             160, 70,  67, 246,  1,  37,
              38, 61, 171,  23
           ]
           id1 after await: [
              13,  3,  84,  28, 22, 176,
             160, 70,  67, 246,  1,  37,
              38, 61, 171,  23
           ]
           id2 after await: [
              13,  3,  84,  28, 22, 176,
             160, 70,  67, 246,  1,  37,
              38, 61, 171,  23
           ]
           ---
           final id1: [
              13,  3,  84,  28, 22, 176,
             160, 70,  67, 246,  1,  37,
              38, 61, 171,  23
           ]
           final id2: [
              13,  3,  84,  28, 22, 176,
             160, 70,  67, 246,  1,  37,
              38, 61, 171,  23
           ]
           identical? true
        • toraway 27 minutes ago |
          Shouldn't your test follow the pattern of how rng() is actually being used in the uuid.ts code internally?

          Your test is more-or-less contrived to fail given the tradeoff to avoid repeated memory allocations but that doesn't say much about the actual usage in uuid generation since it's not exported for general purpose use.

          Presumably they had some hot path somewhere where rng() is called in a loop and this optimization made sense with awareness that it could be misused as in your example breaking the contract ensuring randomness, which (hopefully) they're not actually doing anywhere.

          Unless I'm missing something replacing the package over this with a less vetted implementation seems excessive and possibly even counterproductive.

      • jbverschoor 2 hours ago |
        https://github.com/uuidjs/uuid/blob/e1f42a354593093ba0479f0b...

        became

        https://github.com/uuidjs/uuid/blob/f2c235f93059325fa43e1106...

        Welp.. time to patch and update everything again. Another day, another npm-package headache. Very odd()

        Attack vector: call the rng(), and send the result somewhere. You now have now overwritten someone elses "random number" and know about it. The fun things you can do with those numbers!

        • jbverschoor 2 hours ago |
          Seems to be "safe" because of it's not exported, and the results get used in a different way. Still is a bug in my book.
  • jandrewrogers 3 hours ago |
    This is surprisingly common.

    The security of UUIDv4 is based on the assumption of a high-quality entropy source. This assumption is invalidated by hardware defects, normal software bugs, and developers not understanding what "high-quality entropy" actually means and that it is required for UUIDv4 to work as advertised.

    It is relatively expensive to detect when an entropy source is broken, so almost no one ever does. They find out when a collision happens, like you just did.

    UUIDv4 is explicitly forbidden for a lot of high-assurance and high-reliability software systems for this reason.

    • thecloud 2 hours ago |
      Thanks for the insight! Mind expanding on what alternatives are being used in high reliability systems instead of UUIDv4?
      • lazide 2 hours ago |
        Sequences, generally.
      • filcuk 2 hours ago |
        The latest UUID (7?) Uses half random gen, half timestamp. This not only makes it sortable by creation, but would also make a collision like this impossible.
        • ffsm8 2 hours ago |
          Considering the context I think it's worth pointing out that it's technically not impossible - it's just even less likely.

          Everything in crypto is always a probability - never a certainty

          • nitsky 2 hours ago |
            True, but it makes the specific collision the post observed completely impossible.
            • stanmancan an hour ago |
              I left a more detailed comment on the parent, but it's definitely not impossible!
              • ryanmonroe an hour ago |
                The scenario in this post is that the first uuid was created one year before the duplicate uuid. That isn’t possible with v7
                • ffsm8 34 minutes ago |
                  You're heavily leaning on "collision like this" to relate to the exact time stamps for your statement to be true.

                  It's equality possible to interpret the "like this" to the collision itself, without a focus on the 1 year distance between the creation dates.

                  So I guess both views are valid.

                • JamesSwift 27 minutes ago |
                  Surely the scenario where he generates the same number of items as he did between 2025 and now, but did it in 1 tick of v7 UUIDs also runs into it?
        • stanmancan 2 hours ago |
          It's still possible in most implementations of UUIDv7.

          UUIDv7 assigns the first 48 bits for the timestamp in milliseconds. You can generate a lot of UUID's in a millisecond though!

          Then you have another 12 bits that you can use as you wish; "rand_a". The spec has a few methods they suggest on how to use these bits including 12 bits of random data, using it for sub-millisecond timestamps, or creating a monotonic counter, but each have their downsides:

          - Purely random data means you can still run into collisions and anything within the same millisecond is unordered

          - Sub millisecond you can run into collisions; there's nothing stopping you from generating two UUID's with the same 62 bits of rand_b data in the same sub-millisecond timestamp.

          - Monotonic counters can overflow before the next tick, then what? Rollover? Once you roll over it's no longer monotonic and you can generate the same random data within the same monotonic cycle. Also; it's only monotonic to the system that's generating the UUID. If you have a distributed system and they each have their own monotonic cycles then you'll be generating UUID's with the same timestamp + monotonic counter, and again, are relying on not generating the same random data.

          You can steal some of the 62 bits in rand_b if you want as well; you can use rand_a for sub-millisecond accuracy, and then use a few bits of rand_b for a monotonic counter. There's still a chance of collision here, but it's exceedingly low at the expense of less truly random data at the end.

          If you want truly collision free, you'd also need to assign a couple of bits to identify the subsystem generating the UUID so that the monotonic counter is unique to that subsystem. You lose the ordering part of the monotonic counter this way though, but I guess you could argue that in nearly 100% of cases the accuracy of sub-millisecond order in a distributed system is a lie anyways.

          • rootlocus 24 minutes ago |
            We have a dedicated snowflake id generator service that returns batch ids. It's also distributed, each service adds its own instance number to the id. When it overflows it just blocks for the next ms. For our traffic, it's never a bottleneck.
          • naniwaduni 12 minutes ago |
            I think by the time you're building a system that needs to generate (and persist!) billions of identifiers per millisecond, you're solidly past the point where all your design decisions need to be vetted for whether they make sense on your extremely exotic setup.
      • jandrewrogers an hour ago |
        In high-reliability systems a criterion for identifier design is easy detection of defective identifiers. This includes buggy systems and adversarial manipulation.

        The problem with UUIDs that rely on entropy sources is that it is computationally expensive to detect if the statistical distribution of identifiers is diverging from what you would expect from a random oracle. I've written systems that can detect entropy source anomalies but you'll want to turn it off in production.

        It is pretty cheap to sanity check most non-probabilistic identifier schemes. UUIDs that use broken hash algorithms (e.g. UUIDv3/5) or leak state (e.g. UUIDv7) are exposed to adversarial exploitation.

        The identifier scheme is dependent on the use case. Does the uniqueness constraint apply to the instance of the object or the contents of the object? Is the generation of identifiers federated across untrusted nodes? How large is the potential universe of identifiers?

        The basic scheme I've seen is a 128-bit structured value that has no probabilistic component. These identifiers can be encrypted with AES-128 when exported to the public, guaranteeing uniqueness while leaking no internal state. The benefit of this scheme is that it is usually drop-in compatible with standard UUID even though it is technically not a UUID and the internal structure can carry useful metadata about the identifier if you can decrypt it.

        Federated generation across untrusted nodes requires a more complex scheme, particularly if the universe of identifiers is extremely large. These intrinsically have a collision risk regardless of how the identifiers are generated.

        All of the standardized UUID really weren't designed with the requirements of scalable high-reliability systems in mind. They were optimized for convenience and expedience which is a perfectly reasonable objective. Most people don't need an identifier system engineered for extreme reliability, even though there is relatively little cost to having one.

      • matt-p 31 minutes ago |
        UUIDv7 is arguably better, because it is entropy plus time.
    • perching_aix 2 hours ago |
      How is UUIDv4 to blame for a broken source of entropy? Or am I misinterpreting your words?
      • hombre_fatal 2 hours ago |
        Presumably they mean using randomness as unique IDs.
      • hmry 2 hours ago |
        I wouldn't say it's "to blame", but it is more susceptible to bad RNG.

        If the RNG is bad, you'll get more benefit from adding non-random bits than you would from additional badly RNG'd bits.

        The probability of future collisions also rises the more IDs you generate. If you incorporate non-random bits, you can alleviate that:

        - timestamps make the collision probability not grow over time as you accumulate more existing UUIDs that could collide

        - known-distinct machine IDs make the collision probability not grow as you add more machines

      • jandrewrogers an hour ago |
        I never blamed UUIDv4 for broken entropy sources. A broken entropy source breaks UUIDv4 even if you are using it correctly.

        There is a long history of broken entropy sources showing up in real systems. No matter how hard people try to prevent this it keeps happening. Consequently, a requirement for high-quality entropy sources is correctly viewed as an unnecessary and avoidable foot-gun in high-reliability software systems.

    • LocalH 2 hours ago |
      This is why CloudFlare has done what they did with the lava lamp wall. Not that the wall is such a great source of entropy on its own - I'm sure it's not their only source, but you can never have too many sources of entropy - but it makes it visible in a way that can grab those who don't fully understand the concepts of RNGs and how entropy plays into that.

      The more sources of entropy, the more closely you approach "perfect" randomization. And a large chunk of those entropy sources need to be non-deterministic. Even on the small level, local applications running on local systems, like games, can use things like the mouse coordinates, the timings between button presses, the exact frame count since game start before the player presses Start to greatly enhance randomness while still using PRNGs under the hood

      Yes, for the latter, that's technically deterministic (and the older the game considered, the more deterministic it is, see TAS runs of old games obliterating the "RNG"). But when you have fifty different parameters feeding into the initial seed, that's fifty things an attack would have to perfectly predict or replay (and there are other ways to avoid replay attacks that can be layered on top)

      If CloudFlare had less than 100 different sources of entropy, I'd be disappointed. And that's assuming their algorithm for blending those entropy sources into a single seed value is good

      • victorbjorklund an hour ago |
        If I understand it the Lava lamps are 90% PR/fun. They have a lot of other sources for entropy that scales better.
        • euroderf 27 minutes ago |
          Ant farm ? Hamster wheels ? Anything critter-driven should provide some entropy.
          • BSVogler 23 minutes ago |
            I once read that noise of camera in total darkness is apparently a good source.
            • unilynx 13 minutes ago |
              The noise probably makes the lava lamp wall just as effective as pointing the camera at the Mona Lisa - the lamps themselves are not that unpredictable frame-to-frame.
  • dweez 3 hours ago |
    Good moment to revisit this fun article: https://jasonfantl.com/posts/Universal-Unique-IDs/

    If the entire universe were turned into a giant computer and did nothing but generate uuids until its heat death, how many bits would you need for the ID space?

  • sudb 2 hours ago |
    This is first time I have experienced some vindication that choosing CUID2[1] for one of my projects was actually a good idea.

    1. https://github.com/paralleldrive/cuid2

  • sbuttgereit 2 hours ago |
    > I thought this is technically impossible

    No, very technically possible... though, with good randomness, very, very unlikely.

    But nothing technically prevents a UUIDv4 from generating a duplicate value.

  • e12e 2 hours ago |
    Some discussion here:

    https://github.com/uuidjs/uuid/issues/546

    Eg:

    > FWIW, I just tested crypto.getRandomValues() behavior on googlebot and it is also deterministic(!)

  • shortercode 2 hours ago |
    Fun thing about random is that these things happen. UUIDv7 is less prone to this as it includes both a time component and random. I’ve been using ULID in a few project which has similar attributes to uuidv7 but more space efficient.
  • sqquima 2 hours ago |
    Meta, but if I had a question like this, I'd likely have asked on Twitter or Reddit first. I'll keep in mind using HN as an alternative Q&A site.
  • danfritz 2 hours ago |
    Always let your db generate uuids. On postgres this is easy since v18 it supports uuid v7!

    There is no need to set uuids through javascript or node imo

    • hx8 2 hours ago |
      There's plenty of reasons to set a unique identifier before database save, or to want a unique identifier that doesn't have a 1-to-1 relationship with your object.

      For example, in the idempotent kafka consumer pattern we set a unique ID in the header of every kafka message at the time of message publishing. We then have our consumers do a quick check of the ID against their data store to see if they have processed the message before or not. This way there is no impact if a consumer sees the same message twice. This allows us more flexibility during rebalancing events or replaying old offsets.

  • mdavid626 2 hours ago |
    Or there is some other explanation, eg. somebody messed with the request manually, or with the db.
  • nu11ptr an hour ago |
    Ultimately it comes down to your entropy source. I always generate and insert in a loop for this reason, if there is a collision, I therefore handle that gracefully.
  • nozzlegear an hour ago |
    > I thought this is technically impossible, and it will never happen,

    In an eternal universe, even the most unlikely of events will happen an infinite number of times.

  • beejiu an hour ago |
    Are your UUIDs generated client side or server side? If it's client side, it could be due to a crawling bot. Googlebot for example executes Javascript using deterministic "randomness".
  • MagicMoonlight an hour ago |
    This is why it’s stupid to assume a randomly generated ID is unique just because it is random.
  • CodesInChaos an hour ago |
    This is usually caused by an insufficently seeded PRNG.

    Are you generating the UUID in the backend, or the frontend? Frontend is fundamentally unreliable for many reasons, including deliberate collisions. So if that case you'll need to handle collisions somehow. Though you can still engineer around common sources of collisions, the specifics depend on the environment.

    On the other hand making a backend reliable is feasible. What kind of environment is your code running in? Historically VMs sometimes suffered from this problem, though this should be solved nowadays. Heavily sandboxed processes might still run into this, if the RNG library uses an unsafe fallback. Forking processes or VMs can cause state duplication and thus collisions.

  • dist-epoch an hour ago |
    It's much more likely that you hit an "impossible bug" due to a bit flip somewhere.

    Imagine the database having the old UUID in a memory buffer due to a recent index scan, and a bit flip happened somewhere in the logic which basically copied the old UUID into the memory location of the new UUID, or some buffer addresses got swapped, or the operation which allocated the new UUID received a memory buffer containing the old one, and due to a bit flip the memcpy operation was skipped, or something along that line.

    Facebook wrote extensively about this, stuff like "if (false) {do_x(); )" and do_x being called. For example their critical RocksDB kv store has extensive redundant protections to defend against such "impossible bugs".

  • rglover an hour ago |
    A check inside the generator function is the best way I've found to avoid this. Wrap uuid or whatever random generator with a check against an ID cache. If it already exists, just run the generator recursively.
  • _kst_ 9 minutes ago |
    This reminds me of a passage from the book "Pro Git".

    <https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2>

    "Here’s an example to give you an idea of what it would take to get a SHA-1 collision. If all 6.5 billion humans on Earth were programming, and every second, each one was producing code that was the equivalent of the entire Linux kernel history (6.5 million Git objects) and pushing it into one enormous Git repository, it would take roughly 2 years until that repository contained enough objects to have a 50% probability of a single SHA-1 object collision. Thus, an organic SHA-1 collision is less likely than every member of your programming team being attacked and killed by wolves in unrelated incidents on the same night."

    Deliberate collisions are addressed in the following paragraph.

    SHA-1 hashes are not random, so the issue of poor pseudo-random number generation doesn't apply as it does to uuidv4. And SHA-1 hashes are 160 bits, vs. 128 for uuidv4.

    But I love the idea of unrelated wolf attacks.

  • zuzululu 3 minutes ago |
    just uuidv5