• tptacek 4 hours ago |
    The introduction to this piece was easy to follow, but as soon as he got into recapitulating it with algebra he lost me (because I'm bad at math). But he includes the GPT5 prompts for his conversation, which are easier to follow:

    https://chatgpt.com/share/6a5fdc7a-d6f8-83e8-bbea-8deb42cfed...

    • minimaxir 3 hours ago |
      Also note the timestamp: he started working on this thread a few hours after the tweet.
    • CamperBob2 an hour ago |
      I like how he goes one-on-one with it like Gandalf fighting Yoda on fifteen planes at once for 80% of the transcript, and then we read "OK, I've activated Pro."
  • ChrisArchitect 3 hours ago |
    Related:

    Claude Fable produced a counterexample to the Jacobian Conjecture

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48973869

    Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48983382

  • hyperhello 3 hours ago |
    Okay. So what does this overturn, intuitively? Can we no longer assume that functions are differentiable at certain points, or something?
    • sfpotter 2 hours ago |
      No. This is about polynomials. The assumption that the Jacobian is nowhere zero is what is doing so much of the work. This means the Jacobian must in fact be constant. But obviously there are many mappings whose Jacobians are not constant.
    • mswphd 2 hours ago |
      it doesn't overturn much. For example, here is a post from 2004

      https://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=105

      it is about a purported (though incorrect) positive proof of the Jacobian conjecture in 2 dimemnsions. It is true in 1 dimension. The Fable proof is that it is false in >= 3 dimensions. 2 dimensions is still open.

      Anyway, in that post it says

      > It now seems that a proof has been found by Carolyn Dean of the University of Michigan, for the case of polynomials in two complex variables *(for more variables, many people believe it is not even true)*

      so the resolution of this is a "surprise" in that it is a very long open with many failed proof attempts. But the direction it resolved was not surprising.

    • monster_truck an hour ago |
      Not much.

      But it does give credible plausibility to the concept that we might be mistaken about the exact boundaries of hardness for adjacent (but not equivalent) polynomial systems. Most (all?) of which have also stood up to a whole lot of undeniably sharp people poking at them for about as long.

    • impendia 4 minutes ago |
      For the Jacobian determinant to be constant is a massive coincidence, in general it is some complicated and messy polynomial. The conjecture was that this coincidence couldn't happen, except for simple special cases.

      So Alpoge and Fable found an example of a function that was believed to be too strange to exist.

  • vanderZwan 3 hours ago |
    > While this is an extremely quick verification, the construction presented in this fashion appears like a massive miracle. The polynomial {F} has degree seven, so a priori the Jacobian {\mathrm{det} DF} ought to be a polynomial in three variables of degree as large as {3 \times 6 = 18}, so the fact that all non-constant coefficients of this polynomial vanish looks like a massive cancellation involving {\binom{18+3}{3}-1 = 1329} coefficients, which is much larger than the {\binom{7+3}{3} = 120} degrees of freedom for a generic degree seven polynomial of three variables. So finding such a polynomial looks highly unlikely to be located by brute force.

    Sounds like the most interesting part would be learning what approaches the LLM did use to see if that's reusable elsewhere. I'm guessing that's what the rest of the article is about? Because I also couldn't follow the maths any more.

  • zzzeek 2 hours ago |
    reading through this I eventually realized a situation similar to my experience of it is what my dog sees if I attempt to explain Python programming to him.
    • tgrowazay an hour ago |
      Some people downvoting you, but I think it is a valuable illustration of IQ gap.

      And chances are that humanity at large will be soon trying to follow ai inventions and discoveries not unlike your dog follows your Python code.

  • drivebyhooting 2 hours ago |
    Can we audit the CoT and work the AI did to generate such a remarkable cancellation?
    • castedo 2 hours ago |
      I doubt Anthropic will share the details (or at least the full true details). The mystery of the magic makes for much better marketing.

      I think a reasonable assumption is that there is an interaction between an LLM, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system tool, a human prompting with deep math expertise, and lots of compute that explains hitting upon the remarkable cancellation.

      • p-e-w an hour ago |
        > a human prompting with deep math expertise

        The original tweet implied that the whole thing was done while the author was watching the World Cup final.

        I know it’s tempting to hope that a human did the “real” work here, but if some special insight was put into prompting, the author kept it to himself, and there is no reason why they would hide this since it would elevate their own status.

        • monster_truck 30 minutes ago |
          I don't think it is as much about 'real' work or a special insight as it is being willing to push back multiple times, or simply asking in a way that steers it towards actually 'giving enough of a fuck' to even bother. We tend to be ~blind to how differently we would ask about something we know compared to a novice, this is what makes some better teachers than others.

          Have encountered a similar flavor in programming, wrote it off until I saw someone point out how garbage in garbage out they tend to be. If you hand any frontier model dogshit and ask it to do something simply, the result is often not great.

          But! If you spend 20 minutes having it comb through and clean up with something like jscpd, then tell it to step through with a debugger, gather profiling traces, etc... very likely it will yield meaningful improvements or catch some corner cases. If it doesn't, anyone with experience is going to tell it to try something else, or that it isn't good enough, as opposed to accepting the first result.

          You can recreate this by disabling web search and asking a model about the conjecture and then giving it his post. I've tried a few and their initial responses range from "this is a meme I'm not even going to verify it" to vaguely insulting chains of thought, concerns about the need to be careful because you're clearly nuts or stupid, then falling back on remedial explanations. After a few nudges they all eventually work through it, accept it, and apologize.

          IMO its reasonable to imagine a situation where someone is having a beer or two watching The Big Game, asking an LLM to do something stupid for fun and landing somewhere like this on the magic jump to conclusions mat.

      • jasonfarnon an hour ago |
        Not just an assumption, I saw the LLM saying it used sympy.
      • tptacek an hour ago |
        I think you can reasonably assume that frontier models are using SymPy or something like it any time interesting math gets into the picture, and the person driving Fable here is an accomplished mathematician, but I don't think we can reasonably assume either extensive prompting or brute-force compute in any sense other than what it normally takes Fable to, say, whip up a calculator app.
    • netvarun an hour ago |
  • jmward01 an hour ago |
    Finding a different way of thinking about a problem often leads to a breakthrough. This is what an ecosystem in nature shows us, that diversity matters in finding hard solutions. I think the great thing here is we are getting a chance to find whole new ways of thinking about problems that were hard. I suspect many old problems will fall because of it and, hopefully, some really new interesting ones will replace them.
    • gerdesj an hour ago |
      "problems that were hard"

      They are still hard problems - As we say in the UK: "one swallow does not a summer make".

      As you well know: birds are not renowned for their arithmetic skills, nor eating encourages the weather!

  • aayushdutt an hour ago |
    After reading a quarter of the article I started wondering, is this what non coders feel when vibe coding software?